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What Talonflame EV's are you guys running?


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#1 KoD2304

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 02:57 AM

I'm calculating some EV spreads on my Machamp; I think its great, it can 100% OHKO a Ttar with 0 investment in attack EV's and can outspeed an adamant 252 speed Ttar when it has a Jolly nature and 252 speed EVs.    

The one problem I'm having is Talonflame. Machamp cannot survive a 252 attack brave bird without a Coba Berry. I'd like it to be able to OHKO the Talonflame in return with Thunder punch but I'm not sure what EV's the Talonflame would be running.     

If the Talonflame is running 252HP/4Def a 252Attack/Jolly Thunder punch will only OHKO if the Talon flame got a high damage roll and therefore received more recoil damage and Machamp also gets a VERY high damage roll. 

Are people running 252hp/4Def on Talonflame or are you running Speed EVs? I was thinking speed EVs are redundant on Talonflame because you're going to be using +1 priority moves.    

 

Thanks in advance.

 

TLDR: What EV spreads are you running on Talonflame?

 

EDIT: Stone Edge op.


Edited by KoD2304, 16 December 2013 - 03:15 AM.


#2 Mullac

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 03:35 AM

I haven't used Talonflame much in Battle spot (which may come as a shock considering its popularity) but I'd imagine the normal idea would be to run enough speed EV's to outspeed whatever you would intend on using Flare Blitz against. I've seen some sets run 188 to outspeed Jolly Garchomp, while 68 gets the jump on Adamant Kanga. Of course you'll find many people just pumping 252 straight into speed. 



#3 mattj

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 04:17 AM

252 HP, 4 Def, Charti Berry. Survives every non STAB Rock Slide, many Stone Edges, and even a few poorly invested STAB Rock Slides. I can't imagine why it would need Speed with Tailwind and priority, and any reasonable support.

Edited by mattj, 16 December 2013 - 04:30 AM.


#4 Chauzu

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 04:27 AM

252 Atk is the only given (and some Bulk Up + Roost gimmick sets don't even max that). After that the rule is basically to just add as much speed as you need for whatever you want to accomplish. For example, 228 Spd guarantees that Talonflame is guaranteed to set up Tailwind by being faster than all pranksters. If there are no specific threats you can also just dump the rest in HP (which is what I usually do).


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#5 drug duck

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 04:33 AM

I think 172 Speed EVs or whatever is needed to get the jump on +Nature Base 100 is the minimum so you can Brave Bird Mega Kangaskhan before it can Sucker Punch you. Max Atk is obviously needed as well. Of course you can run bulkier sets with Charti Berries and stuff, you should just be aware of the Kangaskhan stuff when doing so. Most smart Kangaskhan will just Return anyway because they can take a Brave Bird and because they would know about the mechanics but it's something to thing about.



#6 Safro Amurai

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 07:08 AM

As kind of a nub when it comes to competitive i'd have to ask if machamp is a good idea considering the current metagame. isn't he a OHKO against pretty much any talonflame with priority brave bird?
that aside i'd propably pump enough speed into my talonflame to outspeed any other mon in the current meta.

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#7 Sabaku

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 07:12 AM

Most people will make sure to run enough speed so that Liepard can't ruin him with Encore and other Prankster moves.



#8 BrewCrew

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 08:12 AM

 Do what sabaku said, max attack ev's, and dump the rest in hp.


Stop this nonsense that you can "avoid hax". Unless you're running Façade Kanga you cant beat me.


#9 Scott

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 10:30 AM

I think 172 Speed EVs or whatever is needed to get the jump on +Nature Base 100 is the minimum so you can Brave Bird Mega Kangaskhan before it can Sucker Punch you. Max Atk is obviously needed as well. Of course you can run bulkier sets with Charti Berries and stuff, you should just be aware of the Kangaskhan stuff when doing so. Most smart Kangaskhan will just Return anyway because they can take a Brave Bird and because they would know about the mechanics but it's something to thing about.

 

Agree with this spread, but partially for different reasons. I think the biggest priority bracket tie between those two is probably Fake Out vs. Quick Guard, which is a move I really think people should be using if they're using Talonflame. The utility is a lot more practical against a good player than Tailwind, so the only real viable alternative is like Will-O-Wisp, Protect, and U-turn in the two non-STAB base 120 move slots. Spending a turn on a Pokemon as frail and weak to common metagame threats as Talonflame to setup with like Tailwind or Swords Dance is going to end up with you down a Pokemon immediately way too frequently, and recovering from that against a good team is pretty difficult, so QG is usually something I think people should be defaulting on their sets and sort of requires this speed point. In the WoW scenario it also ensures you can burn it before you get attacked, though unless you're predicting a Sucker Punch (which is a mistake like drug duck mentioned) that's probably not your best play.

 

Going a little faster to creep the Liepard thing might be worth it more to creep other Talonflame who think that is important rather than for Liepard itself, who isn't very good or popular, though. 

 

 

 

EDIT: Also, since I read the OP a little more carefully since I posted: I'd be really careful about trying to EV Pokemon to OHKO things that are faster than and do massive damage to them, you're building around a scenario where a lot of things can go wrong. This is especially true because while I'd say you're usually safe assuming the EV spread is somewhere around the 172-whatever 2 over Liepard is Speed/252 Attack/4 Def and SDef/rest in HP range, you're always going to find players who are running weirder spreads... which is playing with fire when you're fighting a counter.


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#10 Dozz

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 10:45 AM

As kind of a nub when it comes to competitive i'd have to ask if machamp is a good idea considering the current metagame. isn't he a OHKO against pretty much any talonflame with priority brave bird?
that aside i'd propably pump enough speed into my talonflame to outspeed any other mon in the current meta.

 

Are you saying we should be immediately ruling out the Machamps and such, purely because they gets handily dealt with with by Talonflame? If so, that's going to limit your options really, as Brave Bird deals with lots of things rather handily. Admittedly, it's probably not the Pokemon I'd be using to deal with Talonflame in the first place, but a team with nothing weak to Talonflame is going to be a shade limited I feel.

 

Back on topic, and I agree with Scott and Drug_Duck on this one. I think it's worth making sure you can outspeed the things you need to when you're not just relying on Gale Wings, and personally, I'm not convinced that the HP is going to make that much of a difference sometimes, it's hardly a bulky pokemon at the best of times.


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#11 voodoo pimp

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 11:39 AM

Max Speed so it can kill other Talonflames before they move.  Not like the bulk makes much of a difference anyway.



#12 KoD2304

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 12:50 PM

Thanks for the help!   

I know Machamp isn't the best pokemon but he is one of my favorites and I've had a fair bit of success with him. He can ohko a lot of threats (Kang + Ttar) without the need for offensive EV spreads and he has some great coverage with stone edge and elemental punches and also has access to wide and quick guard. 

With the right support I think he could be devastating, dynamic punch is just so strong with no guard!



#13 TheHighdregion

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 03:51 PM

I use a 252hp/252atk CB talonflame with:

flare blitz

brave bird

steel wing

u-turn

 

FB and BB as stabs, steel wing coverage and U-turn out of tricky situations


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#14 Purity the Kitty

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 07:08 AM

I do agree that Quick Guard is underplayed; I run Talonflame on my damage control team, 252HP 252 Atk 4 Def, with WoW/Tailwind. Tailwind may go for Quick Guard, but at that point it needs more Speed.


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#15 bearsfan092

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 08:00 AM

The sad thing is I keep assuming that players will be smart and use Quick Guard, causing me to Return on T1 with Kangaskhan.  Then they Tailwind on me and I look dumb :(

 

On the subject of Tailwind, I don't think it provides any significant return on investment anyway.  Tailwind is good for sniping out those fast Pokemon with mid speed hard hitters.  Problem is most of the really fast Pokemon (faster than Garchomp) are frail, so you could probably trade hits favorably since most of them aren't overwhelmingly hard hitters.  On top of that, the base 100-102 Pokemon are pretty naturally bulky (Garchomp, Kanga especially), so giving up an attack for a speed advantage isn't all that useful.  You also probably lose your Talonflame in the process, or at least take significant damage.

 

If you're going to use Talonflame, keep it simple.  Brave Bird the stuff that needs to be cleaned up, Flare Blitz when threatened with Quick Guard or against Steels.



#16 MSK

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 05:32 AM

What nature are most people running on Talonflame? I was thinking of going Adamant to gain more power but amI losing to much speed over Jolly?



#17 ChicoMono

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 06:07 AM

What nature are most people running on Talonflame? I was thinking of going Adamant to gain more power but amI losing to much speed over Jolly?

I personally run Adamant for Extra Power, mostly because I don't need the speed due to Talonflame giving Tailwind Support for the Team, AND It is not designed to be sent out, kill something then die (Mine's a more bulky spread of 44 HP / 228 Atk / 164 Def / 4 SpDef / 68 Speed).



#18 voodoo pimp

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 08:29 AM

Not much reason to run Jolly unless you want to outrun other Talonflame or you really need a faster Flare Blitz for some particular threat; you can already beat all the relevant priority moves with Adamant.



#19 mattj

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:25 PM

Is there really anything anyone might need to outspeed to hit with a Flare Blitz?  I haven't seen anything so far.



#20 MSK

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 04:17 PM

Cool, thanks guys Adamant it is then, it's what I've been running on Showdown but as I've just started breeding in game and caught a Jolly one I thought i'd ask in case.

Right off to find an adamant one!! lol






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