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Bulky Mega Charizard X


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#1 Speed Boost

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 08:42 AM

Hey Guys,

 

I really love Bulky Mega Charizard X in the Singles metagame, and I think there could be a successful adaptation to VGC.  Someone may have already used a similar set in the Nugget Bridge community, but I have seen it yet.  Here is the set I started testing today on Showdown.  Charizard X seems to have very good defensive typing for the VGC 2014 metagame.  It also has the surprise factor of not being the more popular Charizard Y.  Thanks to the dual Fire | Dragon typing after mega evolving Zard X takes neutral damage from Fairy moves unlike other popular dragons.  This set aims to outspeed typical threats in the middling speed tier while retaining enough bulk to tank super effective Dragon, Rock and Ground type moves from Pokemon like Garchomp, Tyranitar and Aerodactyl.  

charizard.gif

 

Charizard @ Charizardite X | Blaze
Adamant |  220 HP  252 Atk  36 Spd
Dragon Claw | Will-O-Wisp | Flare Blitz | Protect

 

Weaknesses:  Ground, Rock, Dragon

Resistances:  Electric, Fire, Grass, Bug, Steel

 

Here are some Calcs to give an idea of how this set may fare against some of the biggest threats in VGC 2014 offensively and defensively.  It can pretty much take a hit from anything on the physical side.  Draco Meteors from Salamence are going to be a problem though.

 

Charizard X versus Mega Mawile

 

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 162-192 (103.1 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 78-92 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 133-157 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 66-78 (36.4 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Charizard X versus Garchomp

 

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 204-242 (110.8 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 126-150 (69.6 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk burned Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 63-75 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Charizard X versus Mega Kangaskhan

 

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 147-174 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 99-117 (51.2 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 127-153 (70.1 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 63-76 (34.8 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Charizard X versus Talonflame

 

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 129-153 (69.7 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 114-135 (62.9 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Charizard X versus Rotom-Wash

 

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 93-111 (59.2 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

116+ SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 91-108 (50.2 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Charizard X versus Tyranitar

 

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 91-108 (52 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- Atk Life Orb Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 86-104 (47.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

 

252 SpA Life Orb burned Tyranitar Dark Pulse vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 83-99 (45.8 - 54.6%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

 

Charizard X versus Mega Manectric

 

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 118-139 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 78-93 (53.7 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 45-54 (24.8 - 29.8%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO

 

Charizard X versus Charizard Y

 

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 120-142 (77.9 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Air Slash vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 85-102 (46.9 - 56.3%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO

 

Charizard X versus Scrafty

 

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 12 Def Scrafty: 85-102 (49.4 - 59.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 12 Def Scrafty: 58-69 (33.7 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

220+ Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 51-60 (28.1 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

220+ Atk burned Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 25-30 (13.8 - 16.5%) -- possible 7HKO

 

Charizard X versus Aerodactyl

 

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 138-163 (88.4 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 78-92 (43 - 50.8%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO

 

252 Atk burned Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 39-46 (21.5 - 25.4%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO

 

Charizard X versus Aegislash

 

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 206-246 (123.3 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 96-114 (53 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Let me know what y'all think about Bulky Zard X and if you see it as something that could get some momentum in this form or another.


Edited by Speed Boost, 21 March 2014 - 10:46 AM.

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#2 Szarkai

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 09:08 AM

I remember fighting one in singles that had roost....

 

Hated my life after being wiped by something I fully expected to dragon dance.

 

I would aim for the surprise Will-O on something that hates burns. It could gain a lot of KOs just from being a shock, but you will need to maintain that momentum after the surprise is over.


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#3 Grumpy Greg

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 09:49 AM

Beware of burned facade Kanga.

 

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 162-190 (89.5 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
(162, 163, 163, 166, 168, 171, 172, 175, 177, 177, 180, 181, 184, 186, 189, 190)

 

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 177-208 (97.7 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(177, 177, 180, 181, 184, 186, 189, 190, 193, 195, 198, 199, 202, 204, 207, 208)

Edited by Grumpy Greg, 21 March 2014 - 12:57 PM.

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#4 camzeee

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 10:22 AM

I honestly don't think you can afford not to have Flare Blitz on Zard X.  It's a powerhouse, but it needs flare blitz to compete and OHKO the likes of Mawile, Aegislash and Amoonguss otherwise you might as well not run it. 

 

With the right team support, it can do a good job, but in this metagame, DD and Flare Blitz are a must. 


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#5 Speed Boost

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 10:30 AM

I honestly don't think you can afford not to have Flare Blitz on Zard X.  It's a powerhouse, but it needs flare blitz to compete and OHKO the likes of Mawile, Aegislash and Amoonguss otherwise you might as well not run it. 

 

With the right team support, it can do a good job, but in this metagame, DD and Flare Blitz are a must. 

 

Looking at the damage calc EQ does seem like dead weight.  A neutral Dragon Claw is more powerful than a x2 super effective Earthquake.  That said, I'm revising the set to run Flare Blitz over EQ.  Dual STABs is better in a metagame without Heatran.  Thanks


Edited by Speed Boost, 21 March 2014 - 10:31 AM.

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#6 Oryx

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 11:58 AM

I think you should be careful with some of your calcs when it comes to burns. Yes, you do have will-o-wisp but your Charizard is slower than a couple of those mons: Kangaskhan, Garchomp, Aero and certain Tyranitars. Also the 85% accuracy with burns is kinda shaky so beware. 


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#7 Simon

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 12:14 PM

Yeah... I'm not sure you want to be outsped by Smeargle, Mamoswine Rotom and everything in that area... I'm glad that people are learning how to do calcs to create spreads but I think people need to learn how to apply them.

 

For example:

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 162-192 (103.1 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

220 Attack ev's nets you the KO. The extra 32 doesn't do anything for you since you already get the KO. Why not put the remaining 32 in Bulk. 

 

Additionally, taking 8 EV's out of HP and putting 4 in Def and 4 in Sp Def makes the spread more efficient and gives you an additional stat point.

 

Looking at your calcs, the amount of HP you have doesn't seem to be effective. It doesn't really turn any OHKO's into 2HKOs. You have calcs that says Charizard will take 80% from certain moves. If you were to run much less HP Ev's, you would still survive the attack.

It's already been said before but half of the things you are burning are faster than you and would still get the KO on the second attack anyways.


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#8 The Enemy

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 03:44 PM

Yeah... I'm not sure you want to be outsped by Smeargle, Mamoswine Rotom and everything in that area... I'm glad that people are learning how to do calcs to create spreads but I think people need to learn how to apply them.

 

For example:

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 162-192 (103.1 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

220 Attack ev's nets you the KO. The extra 32 doesn't do anything for you since you already get the KO. Why not put the remaining 32 in Bulk. 

 

Additionally, taking 8 EV's out of HP and putting 4 in Def and 4 in Sp Def makes the spread more efficient and gives you an additional stat point.

 

Looking at your calcs, the amount of HP you have doesn't seem to be effective. It doesn't really turn any OHKO's into 2HKOs. You have calcs that says Charizard will take 80% from certain moves. If you were to run much less HP Ev's, you would still survive the attack.

It's already been said before but half of the things you are burning are faster than you and would still get the KO on the second attack anyways.

 

Just curious, does this mean a 96 HP, 220 Atk, 156 Spd Charizard X would be better? (outspeeds smeargle, and thus rotom, atk nets Mawile KO, rest in hp?)


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#9 Voltage

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 04:39 PM

This is very similar to the way char-x can be used in singles nicknamed "Tank Zard" that thing checks so many things its crazy. I personally love Mega X and will probs be trying out this set soon.



#10 Kamran

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 04:47 PM

Just curious, does this mean a 96 HP, 220 Atk, 156 Spd Charizard X would be better? (outspeeds smeargle, and thus rotom, atk nets Mawile KO, rest in hp?)

No, but It's a great start for Speed and Attack EVs on the spread. However, you wasted 4 EVs on HP, and you still have 40 EVs remaining... In most cases: At level 50 stat points are divisible by 8 EVs after the first 4 EVs if you're IVs are odd. For those Attack and Speed EVs, if you wanted to just dump the rest into HP 124HP/4Def/4SpDef would be optimal.


Edited by Kamran, 21 March 2014 - 04:50 PM.

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#11 Speed Boost

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 09:35 PM

I think you should be careful with some of your calcs when it comes to burns. Yes, you do have will-o-wisp but your Charizard is slower than a couple of those mons: Kangaskhan, Garchomp, Aero and certain Tyranitars. Also the 85% accuracy with burns is kinda shaky so beware. 

 

You are correct, that is why I did separate calcs just to give an idea of the burn damage if you where faster or if you could catch something on the switch.


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#12 Speed Boost

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 10:08 PM

Yeah... I'm not sure you want to be outsped by Smeargle, Mamoswine Rotom and everything in that area... I'm glad that people are learning how to do calcs to create spreads but I think people need to learn how to apply them.

 

For example:

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 162-192 (103.1 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

220 Attack ev's nets you the KO. The extra 32 doesn't do anything for you since you already get the KO. Why not put the remaining 32 in Bulk. 

 

Additionally, taking 8 EV's out of HP and putting 4 in Def and 4 in Sp Def makes the spread more efficient and gives you an additional stat point.

 

Looking at your calcs, the amount of HP you have doesn't seem to be effective. It doesn't really turn any OHKO's into 2HKOs. You have calcs that says Charizard will take 80% from certain moves. If you were to run much less HP Ev's, you would still survive the attack.

It's already been said before but half of the things you are burning are faster than you and would still get the KO on the second attack anyways.

 

Sorry, I'm new to this VGC stuff.  Does Rotom typically run that much speed investment?  I have seen more bulky Rotoms on in a lot of the articles on hear and in my battle experience.  Forgive my inexperience, I don't really have any VGC tournament experience, just Showdown and Battle Spot.  I really thought 36 EVs in speed would be enough for Rotom.  I also haven't seen much if any Mamoswine. 

 

Another thing, you are not only taking attacks from these specific threats in a one-v-one environnement.  In other words, in many battles you are going to take some chip damage here and there, so you still want a chance to live one of these hits that does 70-80% after taking chip damage if possible.  Also, 252 in Atk does net you some KOs you wouldn't get at 220 against Scrafty, Aerodactyl, and Tyranitar.  If you don't mind, I also don't understand the real benefit of putting 4 EVs in each of your defenses vs just putting those 8 EVs in HP.  


Edited by Speed Boost, 21 March 2014 - 10:08 PM.

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#13 NinjaSyao

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 11:01 PM

 If you don't mind, I also don't understand the real benefit of putting 4 EVs in each of your defenses vs just putting those 8 EVs in HP.  

In most cases it actually gives you around 0,5 % better bulk which is very minimal but a nice little trick to get the most bang for your buck.

 

Since Charizard X deserves some love here are mine and Camzeee's spreads:

 

Charizard (M) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze/Tough Claws
EVs: 172 HP / 108 Atk / 4 Def / 12 Sp.Def  / 212 Spe 

Adamant nature

- Dragon Claw
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Dance

- Protect

 

Charizard (M) @ Charizardite X

Ability: Blaze/Tough Claws
EVs: 172 HP / 124 Atk / 4 Def / 4 Sp.Def  / 204 Spe 

Adamant nature

- Dragon Claw
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Dance

- Protect

 

Mine is a bit more bulky and faster to always outspeed Gyarados for any possible DD wars as there's still a lot of people who go for standard 4/252/252 spreads while Camzeee's spread speed ties Gyarados and sacrifices a bit of bulk for more power. Both are equally good imo and allow Charizard to outspeed everything up to Scarf Krookodile and below after a DD: http://nuggetbridge....on-speed-tiers/

Your spread is good, but it's far too slow for a Will-O-Miss set and generally speaking Charizard needs quite a bit of speed and doesn't need full attack as it can counter Intimidate with DD and SafeSwag support.

 

PS

 

If you want to keep the Will-O-Miss set you'd need enough speed to outpace neutral base 100's which requires Jolly nature and you lose too much stat points for achieving that goal. Adamant DD set is his most efficient set by miles!


Edited by NinjaSyao, 21 March 2014 - 11:02 PM.

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#14 KLVkboom

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 11:24 PM

Similar to Zard Y, I think Zard X requires similar support from its teammates. However, being unpredictable does have its advantages in some scenarios.

 

Against Chomp you'll easily have the surprise advantage. He will most likely Rock Slide assuming the Y set, meanwhile you can return with an OHKO. Salamence is in a similar boat, but he has a respectable chance to survive because of Intimidate. Rotom-W is somewhat easily beat since they often Tbolt first giving you a free Dclaw on it. However, in a best-of-3 environment your tricks won't surprise your opponent anymore, and their Garchomp will throw Dclaws,  Mence will throw Meteors, and Rotom's don't fear using Hydro Pump because sun is nowhere to be seen.

 

I will also have to say that Will-O-Wisp will be very hard to pull off against certain threats. Zard is a natural focus target at it is, and something like MKang can still hit you incredibly hard before you Burn her.

 

Like I said previously though, with proper support you can definitely make the set work. Tailwind support is most notable since it ensures you can either Will-O-Wisp threats first or outright OHKO them (I would also give Zard 8 more Spe EVs since under Tailwind it allows you to outspeed Scarf Mence, another 8 allows you to beat the rare but possible Scarf Chomp). Wide Guard may be a bit tricky because it will put Chomps in the mentality to not use Rock Slide and opt for Dclaw instead.


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#15 Speed Boost

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 11:29 PM

@NinjaSyao

 

I guess as a singles player I'm not understanding why Zard X can't work as a slower Wil-O-Wisp while other mons like Rotom and Gourgiest can.  It is a different role than your accustom to with your mega, but does that mean it can't work with support from stuff like Wide Guard?


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#16 Speed Boost

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 11:32 PM

Similar to Zard Y, I think Zard X requires similar support from its teammates. However, being unpredictable does have its advantages in some scenarios.

 

Against Chomp you'll easily have the surprise advantage. He will most likely Rock Slide assuming the Y set, meanwhile you can return with an OHKO. Salamence is in a similar boat, but he has a respectable chance to survive because of Intimidate. Rotom-W is somewhat easily beat since they often Tbolt first giving you a free Dclaw on it. However, in a best-of-3 environment your tricks won't surprise your opponent anymore, and their Garchomp will throw Dclaws,  Mence will throw Meteors, and Rotom's don't fear using Hydro Pump because sun is nowhere to be seen.

 

I will also have to say that Will-O-Wisp will be very hard to pull off against certain threats. Zard is a natural focus target at it is, and something like MKang can still hit you incredibly hard before you Burn her.

 

Like I said previously though, with proper support you can definitely make the set work. Tailwind support is most notable since it ensures you can either Will-O-Wisp threats first or outright OHKO them (I would also give Zard 8 more Spe EVs since under Tailwind it allows you to outspeed Scarf Mence, another 8 allows you to beat the rare but possible Scarf Chomp). Wide Guard may be a bit tricky because it will put Chomps in the mentality to not use Rock Slide and opt for Dclaw instead.

 

Great explanation! Thank you!


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#17 NinjaSyao

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 12:07 AM

@NinjaSyao

 

I guess as a singles player I'm not understanding why Zard X can't work as a slower Wil-O-Wisp while other mons like Rotom and Gourgiest can.  It is a different role than your accustom to with your mega, but does that mean it can't work with support from stuff like Wide Guard?

I ran a similar set at first as I am an ex singles player myself, but WoW has a bad habit of missing which Zard can't afford coz of all the aggro he draws to himself and he needs to make the most out of every single turn he can get! It can definetly work with Tailwind/Quick Guard/Wide Guard support and it did for me, but it's not as efficient as the DD one since you can just shove the WoW role unto a supporter mon who is far better at it. I prefer Charm over WoW for better accuracy and because it's not affected by Lum Berry.

 

Meowstic/Scrafty/Aerodactyl/Articuno/Machamp/Sableye are all great partners for him.


Edited by NinjaSyao, 22 March 2014 - 12:11 AM.

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#18 chipndip

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 02:21 PM

Here's my input:

-If you're gonna run WoW while being slow, you have to be tanky. VERY tanky. Tanky to the point where a single neutral damage hit doesn't drop you below green from most opponents. Problem is that your Char X isn't going for purely tanking hits. It has some decent speed investment and a great deal of attack investment, so you can't use WoW through its merits alone unless you have some teammates supporting it.

-If you're gonna run WoW while being fast, it really depends on the typing. I used WoW on my Talonflame before I came here to NB, but I realized that anything I'd want to burn was going to freaking use Rock Slide outside of Mega Khan anyway. Thus, why run WoW on Talonflame? I opted for Taunt, and it's been way more effective. In your case, Fire/Dragon doesn't seem too bad for typing, assuming you'd want to outspeed and burn before taking a hit, but you're not fast enough to stop 169 Speed EQ (I use Garchomp as the bar to compare to), nor does your typing resist or nullify EQ, nor does your defense stats high enough to not mind an EQ, and that's before throwing it all into pure Speed and Attack. With that said, you'd also speed tie with Salamence and Mega Khan (assuming no Scarf + max Speed investment). I wouldn't coin flip with those odds.

I like the thought of a surprise attack WoW from Zard X. I actually use my own surprise attack WoW on Delphox (casual play but the team's not shabby! xD). Difference: Delphox is a tad faster than all other Fire-type starters, so it can get away with trying to burn Mega Khan, Garchomp, Salamence, or anyone else that isn't as fast as Mienshao or faster...which is a good deal of pokemon. Charizard, unfortunately, suffers from being just a tiny bit too slow for the good payout, but at the same time, its typing makes it weak to some of the most prominent types of physical attacks in the game that it should be tanking while being slow: Rock and Ground.

Tl;dr: Use another move.


Edited by chipndip, 22 March 2014 - 02:23 PM.


#19 Speed Boost

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 03:41 PM

Yeah, after testing this set in a fair amount of battles I would say its okay.  Tailwind support was definitely great when I was able to make use of it, but overall I would say the set is a little too situational for my mega slot.  That said, I really like the way my RTM team is performing.  Thanks for all the helpful feedback guys.


Edited by Speed Boost, 22 March 2014 - 03:43 PM.

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#20 shinryu

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 06:28 PM

Those calcs are actually kind of impressive, would not have imagined Zard X could take attacks as well as that.

Just some thoughts, I wonder how well a special version would do, yes Y Zard is better as a special attacker generally with a higher base stat and boosted fire, but X doesn't come with the crippling rock and electric weaknesses either and changes a few weaknesses to neutral/resisted hits as well. So maybe like Overheat/Dragon Pulse/WoW/Protect, even if you give up the Tough Claws boost, at least intimidate isn't hurting it (and it's not like Tough Claws is super great generally speaking...).

Or bar that, maybe give up Flare Blitz for Overheat and minor SpA investment, if you look at the calcs, most of the Flare Blitz targets are 2HKOs anyways, something Dragon Claw is likely going to do as well if you're settling for 2HKOs. Mega Mawile for example is still OHKOed by Adamant no investment Overheat, and only a Ray variant is going to be able to live (but since its a weaker attacker as well, you win with a follow up Overheat anyways). You have to settle for a 2hko on Aegislash with a risk of WP going off with overheat, but if you FB into a King's Shield accidentally, you settle for a 2hko anyways. Finally for the Kanga, assuming you run into a 100 HP variant (most are Jolly with 6 HP), Dragon Claw deals the min of 51% to 2HKO safely, but even FB won't OHKO a 6 HP kanga regardless.

#21 WonderBoltPikachu

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 08:23 PM

I actually tried using 'zard X for a long time, and I found that while he can take hits very well, this all falls apart when I lose 40% from flare blitz recoil. It doesn't seem you factored this in when you calculated. I think Mega Kanga might be able to snatch an KO when he almost KOs with return and you kill yourself with the flare blitz recoil.


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#22 chipndip

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 11:21 AM

I actually tried using 'zard X for a long time, and I found that while he can take hits very well, this all falls apart when I lose 40% from flare blitz recoil. It doesn't seem you factored this in when you calculated. I think Mega Kanga might be able to snatch an KO when he almost KOs with return and you kill yourself with the flare blitz recoil.

Precisely, which is why I think there's two ways to run Char X effectively:

1) Fast set with a bulk down/damage up nature. Going for a slight bit of Sp.Atk investment, all of its Speed, and most of its Atk, using moves along the lines of D.Claw, Fire Blast/Overheat, Dragon Dance/Rock Tomb/Rock Slide, and Protect.

2) Slower, bulky set with Adamant nature. Going for the same moves as above.

In the end, you don't want to deplete the health of your mega option of your own accord. It just shortens their time on the field, which is important. People run Flare Blitz in some scenarios, true, but your mega evolution is just too important to be slamming away your own health bar on top of them hitting you too.



#23 camzeee

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 12:54 PM

Precisely, which is why I think there's two ways to run Char X effectively:

1) Fast set with a bulk down/damage up nature. Going for a slight bit of Sp.Atk investment, all of its Speed, and most of its Atk, using moves along the lines of D.Claw, Fire Blast/Overheat, Dragon Dance/Rock Tomb/Rock Slide, and Protect.

2) Slower, bulky set with Adamant nature. Going for the same moves as above.

In the end, you don't want to deplete the health of your mega option of your own accord. It just shortens their time on the field, which is important. People run Flare Blitz in some scenarios, true, but your mega evolution is just too important to be slamming away your own health bar on top of them hitting you too.

 

Maybe, but if two of those hits take out two opposing pokemon, does it matter?  If I can take down two of my opponents' pokemon that leave only two left which the rest of my team can most likely beat.


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#24 FamousDeaf

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 01:01 PM

I was actually tried MegaZard-X with DD and WoW, it is hard to use because:
1. Mega Kangaskhan can take flare blitz and OHKO back.
2. Scarf Salamence is too common and can't even OHKO it, pretty sure. Garchomp is the problem who can do lot of damage on ChariX
3. 100 speed base is really awkward.
4. Poor special defense.
It need a lot of supports to be successful.

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#25 chipndip

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 04:30 PM

Maybe, but if two of those hits take out two opposing pokemon, does it matter?  If I can take down two of my opponents' pokemon that leave only two left which the rest of my team can most likely beat.

In that case, if it goes that well, no it doesn't matter. However, most of the time, you aren't gonna OHKO without super effected targets. You could just go for an EV spread that puts enough Sp.Atk into Fire Blast/Overheat to score those same OHKOs without destroying yourself.

Still, the real question I think we should ask is: What should Char X even do in the VGC meta? 100 base speed is "sort of" fast, but due to its typing, there's a lot of things at around that range that it can't reliably outspeed that it doesn't want to get hit by. Without OHKOs, Flare Blitz just puts a foot in the grave faster, and the meta's swarming with Intimidate and Charm. Even when built tanky, the most common physical moves around are moves Char X doesn't want to get hit by.

Should it go for setups like we've been pitching? Should it go for raw damage and super effective options? Should it be that awkward sweeper regardless of that base 100 Speed? If it was immune to EQ, this would be 10 times easier to settle. As of now, Char X is really awkward. Like Mega Venusaur, but the answer is less obvious (whereas in M-Saur's case, just defeat the opposing Talonflame and win the games).



#26 camzeee

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 05:10 PM

In that case, if it goes that well, no it doesn't matter. However, most of the time, you aren't gonna OHKO without super effected targets. You could just go for an EV spread that puts enough Sp.Atk into Fire Blast/Overheat to score those same OHKOs without destroying yourself.

Still, the real question I think we should ask is: What should Char X even do in the VGC meta? 100 base speed is "sort of" fast, but due to its typing, there's a lot of things at around that range that it can't reliably outspeed that it doesn't want to get hit by. Without OHKOs, Flare Blitz just puts a foot in the grave faster, and the meta's swarming with Intimidate and Charm. Even when built tanky, the most common physical moves around are moves Char X doesn't want to get hit by.

Should it go for setups like we've been pitching? Should it go for raw damage and super effective options? Should it be that awkward sweeper regardless of that base 100 Speed? If it was immune to EQ, this would be 10 times easier to settle. As of now, Char X is really awkward. Like Mega Venusaur, but the answer is less obvious (whereas in M-Saur's case, just defeat the opposing Talonflame and win the games).

 

Dragon Dance sweeper.  With a DD, it can OHKO Mega Kan with Flare Blitz and anyone weaker who doesn't resist.  I like gunning down 4HP Gardevoir who is a 100% OHKO with Flare Blitz even without a DD.


Edited by camzeee, 23 March 2014 - 05:11 PM.

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#27 chipndip

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 07:44 PM

Dragon Dance sweeper.  With a DD, it can OHKO Mega Kan with Flare Blitz and anyone weaker who doesn't resist.  I like gunning down 4HP Gardevoir who is a 100% OHKO with Flare Blitz even without a DD.

True, but in this meta, setting up DD is actually pretty risky. To boot, you sort of lose coverage options by using D-Dance, although it's entirely feasible to have that covered by partners. Also, if a bulkier Gardevoir set does come along...doesn't that just screw you and your whole crew over? I actually run a bulky Gardevoir. It's actually pretty nice. As a side note to the discussion, I'ma throw out that I'd rather go for a bulky Gardevoir set over a Band/Scarf set. Then again, mine is also a TR setter so don't mind my bias...

So if the main game is "D-Dance Sweeping", what type of spread gets that done in a way where you can get the speed you need while being bulky enough to at least get one D-Dance off, then use it effectively?


Edited by chipndip, 23 March 2014 - 07:45 PM.


#28 camzeee

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 08:59 PM

True, but in this meta, setting up DD is actually pretty risky. To boot, you sort of lose coverage options by using D-Dance, although it's entirely feasible to have that covered by partners. Also, if a bulkier Gardevoir set does come along...doesn't that just screw you and your whole crew over? I actually run a bulky Gardevoir. It's actually pretty nice. As a side note to the discussion, I'ma throw out that I'd rather go for a bulky Gardevoir set over a Band/Scarf set. Then again, mine is also a TR setter so don't mind my bias...

So if the main game is "D-Dance Sweeping", what type of spread gets that done in a way where you can get the speed you need while being bulky enough to at least get one D-Dance off, then use it effectively?

 

Fake out support from Scrafty or Mienshao does the trick nicely. Once the DD is up, it'll outspeed the metagame and can sweep.  Bulky Gard will still be OHKO'd by max attack Flare Blitz unless it crams it all in defense.  My set is 172 hp, 124 atk, 4 def, 4 spD, 204 spe. Outspeeds max speed base 80s.  Defense minimizes damage from sand, atk is what's left over and enough to OHKO 4hp Garchomp with Dragon Claw.

 

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Gardevoir: 177-208 (101.1 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


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#29 chipndip

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 10:03 PM

Fake out support from Scrafty or Mienshao does the trick nicely. Once the DD is up, it'll outspeed the metagame and can sweep.  Bulky Gard will still be OHKO'd by max attack Flare Blitz unless it crams it all in defense.  My set is 172 hp, 124 atk, 4 def, 4 spD, 204 spe. Outspeeds max speed base 80s.  Defense minimizes damage from sand, atk is what's left over and enough to OHKO 4hp Garchomp with Dragon Claw.

 

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Gardevoir: 177-208 (101.1 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Then it has to be Mienshao. Kangaskhan is gonna clap down on SOMETHING on turn one. I'd know...cause I run one. Your Fake Out user should be faster than Kanga in order to be reliable in this meta, imo. 167+ or bust is the motto for me.



#30 NinjaSyao

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 12:58 AM

Let's not forget about Meowstic for an alternative. Quick Guard stops Fake Out and he has Charm to help with setting up DD and he can use SafeSwag for POWA!!! When you've got more battle experience with him you'll find setting up DD to be not that hard at all as Charizard X is good at forcing Protect or switches from popular mons which you can abuse with a bit of prediction skills. Wide Guard also pretty much nullifies his 2 main weaknesses.

Charizard X doesn't live that long in almost any match I agree, but as Camzeee pointed out if played well can easily take out 2 opposing Pokemon before going down and that's a very good trade. Being able to beat the Big 4 ME's (bulky Dragon Pulse Yzard being the rare exception) by himself is also a nice bonus.

 

Charizard X is without a doubt hard to use, but he'll repay you handsomely for your effort :)


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